Has Burma the right to refuse foreign-controlled aid?

Burma is a sovereign state.

If sovereign autonomy means anything in international politics, then surely they can do whatever they like; whatever the rest of the world thinks?

Who or what is responsible for global Human Rights?

Legally, its their choice.

Morally, they are disgustingly selfish and cowardly.

It's the country of Myanmar that does this now. It's stupid but governments are just people, they don't want to admit defeat.

They do have the right imo. If I remember correctly the USA refused quite a bit of it after Katrina too.


I guess the UN is supposed to be.

I would generally agree with 2wisted's sentiments on this issue.

However, I feel that the Burmese Junta are passing-off the considerable amount of foreign aid as their own relief efforts, in order to make the generals and their dictatorial regime look halfway competent and even decent. In effect, by blindly kowtowing to their demands, outside aid agencies and the international community are handing the junta a sizable propaganda coup, and thereby helping to perpetuate their barbaric rule.

In short, foreign aid should immediately be stopped until the junta allow the international community/aid agencies to distribute and administer their own aid freely. You can't force aid on a country, but you can withdraw it if the govt don't play ball.

I suppose, yes, they do have the right, like was said earlier, the US declined aid after katrina as well. It's awful for the people effected by the tragedy, but I can understand the feelings of the state. "aid" often comes with hidden agendas, and I mean, really, how can any country in the world trust the US and it's lackeys.

I'm not sure that they do have a legal right. The UN guarantees the soverienty of nations, but there's also (IIRC) treaties covering access to civilian populations by medical staff and aid workers. They might be within their rights to stop US planes overflying their country or troops distributing aid, but not to stop Red Cross workers going out to flooded villages.

On a broader note, I'm not sure we should recognise the sovereignty of dictatorships. There's clearly problems with that position (see Iraq) but I can't see it's right to respect a government that has stolen power from the population.

So we should pick and choose which sovereignty of which dictatorships should count?

On what basis?

No, we should rise up, worldwide, and overthrow all tyrants. Sing along:

Arise! ye starvelings, from your slumbers;
Arise! ye prisoners of want.
For reason in revolt now thunders
And ends at last the age of cant.
Away with all your superstitions
Servile masses, arise! arise!
We’ll change henceforth the old tradition
And spurn the dust to win the prize.

So comrades, come rally
And the last fight let us face
The Internationale
Unites the human race.

No saviour from on high delivers;
No faith have we in prince or peer.
Our own right hand the chains must shiver...

Just because Bush and Blair lied when they said they were trying to get rid of a tyrant, doesn't mean we shouldn't want to get rid of tyrants. When our leaders do follow policies that help spread freedom, we should pragmatically support them.

besides "which "dictatorships" also, how would you describe a "dictatorship". Is Venezuela? The states? Palestine? where do you draw the line, I hope you don't say "voting". Besides that, who's to say that a dictatorship is any worse than BS "democracy".

edit...if we are talking about getting rid of tyrants we can start with bush and blair.



example? and how do you define freedom?

This post has been edited by deadprez: May 14 2008, 07:44 PM

Liberal democracy certainly is a form of tyranny, and to be opposed. I'm guessing you've never traveled to China or the UAE, or read a newspaper at any point in your life, if you can't see that democracies are generally better. As for Palestine, it's always a mark of the weak-minded leftist (who really cares no more for Arabs than the NeoCons do) to think that Fatah are out for anyone but themselves, or that Hamas are out for anyone but Allah and Iran. My opposition to Palestinian zealotry and corruption certainly isn't a sign of support for Zionist apartheid, however.

I don't vote, because I agree that representational democracy is a mask for the usurpation of the people's will. However, other elements of western democracies, like freedom of speech, labour, organisation and assembly, do benefit us, make our lives more tolerable, and make it easier to fight back against tyranny. There's a nihilist argument made by some on the left that openly oppressive states are better, because they bring the revolution closer. I'd suggest the people who argue that do so because they have little compassion for the people who end up living under those oppressive regimes, and are callous about ends and means.

You ask how we should judge who to overthrow. I'd reckon listening to other people worldwide, and finding out what they think about their regimes (teh interweb is great for that) is a good place to start. Reading newspapers and books, and learning to sift the propaganda from the truth, is also useful.

If you can't see Burma is a dictatorship, and we should do what we can to hasten the removal of its government, I find it hard to think that you have any opinion that's worth crediting. If you can't see that ignoring its government and dropping aid where it's needed would be a good idea, I find it hard to think that you have a shred of common human decency.

--------------

You asked about policies that help spread freedom. To name two, off of the top of my head, I'd say Western support for Solidarity in Poland, and the embargoes on South Africa (which many western governments reluctantly, but eventually, implemented).

As to how I would define freedom, its the complete absence of force: taking power out of the hands of priests and policemen, bosses and politicians, teachers and social workers, husbands and fathers, and giving it to every individual. I'm old enough, and wise enough, to see that that conception of perfect freedom is going to take a while to achieve. I don't think that fighting the battles we can win now holds us back from winning the bigger war later.

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Edit 2: It's particularly adolescent to say "the first thing we can do is get rid of Bush and Blair". Not withstanding that Blair has left Britain to join the thousands of other tyrants and mini-tyrants fucking up Palestine, how do you suggest we go about that? What, other than spouting the Party line here, are you doing to make that happen? What are you doing to make anyone's life, but your own, any better?

This post has been edited by MichaelKVegfruit: May 14 2008, 08:23 PM

Very amusing post, you quote a song from communism at its strongest yet ask us to support two of the worst democratic leaders the west has seen for many a decade.

As for your anti Palestinian rant.

Prior to the attempted intervention by Arab states & contrary to the agreed UN Partition plan Israeli forces started shelling Jaffa culminating in a terrorist truck bomb being driven into a market. It was actually those 2 Stern Gang men ordered by Yitzhak Shamir that instigated the first terrorist attack between Palestinians and Israelis. This was preceded by the murder of 254 innocent Palestinian men, women and children trying to flee the fighting. Another order was then given over the radio in Tel Aviv asking for volunteers to go to Jaffa and commandeer Palestinians homes on a first possess first own basis. Then all Arab banks in Jaffa were seized yielding 1.5 billion Palestinian pounds for Israeli war funds. They also looted every Christian Church in Jaffa.

Ben Gurion actually apologised for the above and you should read what Jewish intelligence officer Slunuel. Toledano had to say about their ethnic cleansing plans.

Possibly you should read some more about the origins of the current problems before casting such ridiculous and narrow minded comments. Both sides are as bad as each other.

Nice round up of the school child's guide to the naqba. Well done, have a big red tick from Prof Vegfruit.

I'm well aware of the history of Zionist terror though. I take it you shared a sarcastic smirk with me when the Israelis checked the King David Hotel for bombs prior to Bush's last visit then? No? Maybe you should read a bit more then...

What's anti-Palestinian about hating Fatah and Hamas? I take it you'd consider yourself anti-British and anti-American for hating Bush and Blair? Four sentences on the subject out of a couple of dozen on a broad topic is hardly a rant, either. To reiterate though:



As that's possibly a difficult concept, I'll say it slowly: I. fully. support. the. destruction. of. the. state. of. Israel*

At least, insofar as that means dismantling the Zionist state based on religious and ethnic identity, and replacing it with a single home for everyone in Palestine-Israel, which everyone there can feel safe in. I'm not sure how you think mouthing support for the thieves and thugs of Fatah, or the priests and bombmakers of Hamas, does anything to help the Palestinians. When Marwan Barghouti gets to do his Nelson Mandela thing (which I remain reasonably confident he will), I'll be overjoyed. For now, the Palestinians have no leaders that aren't oppressing them as much as the Israelis are.

But I get the impression that distinction is a bit beyond you, as is the distinction between supporting the overthrow of dictatorship and welcoming the war upon Iraq. I've at no point suggested I support Bush and Blair. In fact, in my first post in this thread I pointed out that I consider Iraq an example of the problems with putting the (claimed) pursuit of freedom over national sovereignty.

The two instances I've actually offered support for (trade union resistance against communist dictatorship, and popular resistance to racist dictatorship) were well before the time of Bush or Blair. I don't think that the type of bloody war they espouse is any substitute for long term, grassroots, campaigns of resistance: in fact, it seems to make the problem worse.


_{*Actually, of all states, but lets not get into that here. I don't have time to make the case for proper communism against whatever version of Stalinist, Maoist, or Trostskyite Fascism it is that you've been hoodwinked into thinking is actually left wing.}

Never to China or the UAE, but have traveled enough to see a few parts of the world (as a volunteer, not enough money for vacations). As for newspapers, not corporate owned propaganda newspapers if that is what you are referring to. You should also get over yourself by the way. I wouldn't know if "democracies" are "better" because I have never actually visited a democratic country.



I was just responding to your statement, "No, we should rise up, worldwide, and overthrow all tyrants."

and to that I say, start with bush and blair.