What is the use of God?

I thought that Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism were growing.... Malaysia, Thailand,and India are very modern societys now.....

This post has been edited by bigbaldybloke: Aug 27 2008, 03:47 PM

That's a good point, @BBB and I can only counter it by saying that technologically modern does not mean culturally modern or for that matter, universally educated. I thing the fade out maytake hundreds rather than tens of years, but I think it is inevitable nontheless. North America may be a special case, where churches have adapted to a materialist society and have infiltrated the education system successfully.

Perhaps mankind will steer a course away from religion but this would only reinforce religious belief that we are descending to a Godless society leading to the destruction of the word.....

Do you think most religious people really think that?

Religious faith is negatively reinforced. It thrives amongst unbelievers, and wilts amongst believers. It's a hard meme to extinguish, but can fade in an apathetic environment, where it is seen to be irrelavent.

Adults used to think the Sun was alive (young children still do) and the belief was powerful enough to found churches. Such a belief is now looked on as irrelavent, and it has faded.

I know the vast majority of Christians in N Ireland believe that......

Thing is, I am fairly comfident in my identification of God as a delusion but in order to address your points made in response to my question, let us consider the case of one Elwood P. Dowd. Elwood is convinced that he is accompanied eveywhere by an invisible six foot white rabbit called Harvey. Harvey's companionship makes life very pleasant for Elwood, although most people that are "introduced" to Harvey think that Elwood is barking. Leaving aside the suggestion in the dramatisaion of Elwood's life that Harvey may actually exist and treating it as I'm sure we all would if we encountered such a situation, i.e. certain that Elwood is delusional in his belief, here is the question again: Is Elwood entitled to his delusion because it makes him happy?

Obviously burning of the articles of his belief in written form is not the way to disabuse Elwood of his notion, nor is any kind of punitive treatment. The secular response would be to ask does Elwood have any disfunction in his neurochemistry, or any physical lesions in his brain. If no physical damage were found then maybe he would be considered to have a mental illness. Problem is, Elwood is high functioning with this delusion. He can understand physics and biology, doesn't have any argument with the natural sciences at all. His behaviour, while eccentric is no danger to others and he looks after himself very well, he's able to hold a job, has a mortgage, he's a regular guy. With a 6ft tall invisible white rabbit for a friend.

So is it arrogant to label Harvey a figment of false conciousness, and if so what does that say about other delusional beliefs of the mentally ill?

With all the versions of God there are in the world today, all the different religions, evn strong believers in one religion have little problem labelling other's religions delusional.

BTW. the question may be arrogant but I'm only asking it because I don't have an answer myself, I'm mulling it over with you all.

@Foghorn: I think most of us live with delusions - it is something that separates us from machines.

But the delusion need not be total. Most of my own delusions are "knowing" ones, whereby, if push comes to shove, I will admit their falsity. Some of them are:

God. I thank and curse him all the time.
Afterlife. I sometimes talk to absent friends and relatives.
Infallibility. I believe my motives are good, and never knowingly do wrong
Golf prowess. Sometimes a bad score is down to bad luck
Smoking. Somehow I won't get lung cancer nor drop dead of a heat attack
etc. etc.

..you see what I mean? I would find it hard to get up in the morning without my delusions.

Do you think any of them are harmful (OK the smoking one isn't good), or should be prevented in some way? Do you share any of them?

*edit* Here's an essay by Daniel Dennett on why he thinks religion will die out within 25 years.

This post has been edited by torrenter: Aug 27 2008, 07:15 PM

I think the problem is the same delusions can be harmful in some people and not others. F'rinstance we all know Muslim bods who are essentially the same as us, have much the same opinions in most things, just want a life for themselves and their families. On the other hand you get a handful of university educated muslims, they get radicalised and next thing you know they are practicing percussive parking in a skyscraper.

It is almost certainly true that if there weren't religion then bad men would find something else to manipulate, but it doesn't change the fact that religion is particularly well suited to this purpose as you don't, as a leader actively have to invest in your afterlife, and it is an incredibly strong motivator.

I mean how else are you going to reward a suicide bombing?

I used to share the smoking one, it got too much to sustain when I got bronchitis.

I'd love to believe I will see my dead friends and family again, but I don't.

This post has been edited by Foghorn: Aug 27 2008, 07:39 PM

Replacing God in your question with a six foot rabbit doesn't change the fact that you are still assuming that God is an irrational and delusional notion... and assumption is a perfectly accurate description because you have no more proof that God is an irrational delusion, than any theist does that he is not.

Why can't you just ask the question that you want to ask... Should people be allowed to believe in God?

LMFAO @ymg

All these sleepless nights must be getting to you mate!

I just had a conversation with my Croatian(Christian) buddy while salmon fishing the other day where he assured me that anyone who did not believe in God whether agnostic or atheist was more likely to molest children, rape women or otherwise do naughty stuff than a Christian. I assume this is because both the latter face no retribution whereas the former does. This thinking, from an otherwise apparently sane person, just blew me away. To think that we are all just wishing we could do that shit but the prospect of Hell is somehow stopping us?.... Especially given where he comes from but maybe it's because of where he comes from? I dunno....

Dear Mr. God

The question I want to ask is more complex than the one you think I'm asking. I'm asking where the line gets drawn. On one hand if we don't allow people to believe in what they want there are ramifications for personal freedom. If we allow anyone to believe in anything then we have to radically revise consensus reality in order to accomodate some of the more prevalent delusions (which may or may not be religious, 7/11 conspiracy theories for example.)

Of course it is true that I can't prove that God does not exist, but this is a different kettle of fish to not being able to prove that religions are artificial constructs which have very little to do with God's existence.

For the record, I don't believe in God and I assume you don't either, so is this just pusillanimous hedging in order to spare the feelings of any theists passing through or are you just being bloody minded for the sake of it?

I don't think it matters to some people. Lives can be full scientifically and technologically, that sometimes just makes people cry out for spirituality more...

If I was to pick out one aspect of most religions to get rid of, it would be the concept of an eternal afterlife.

Suicide bombers are just the lastest incarnation - for hundreds of years, war leaders have justified the killing of other human beings with "God is on your side". Suicide itself becomes almost rational if you think somehow you will be preserved and meet dead relatives.

Ask people if they would take immortality on Earth, and many say "no" yet the same people are happy with the thought of after-death immortality.

Recent discoveries in neurophysiology have shown how the human brain stores memory in a complicated physical way, this ditching forever the concept of somehow extracting a personality intact. Other research indicates the self (soul) that we construct during childhood is intimately tied up with the physical body the brain is attached to.

All of which, pretty-well scotches the religious concept of a human eternal afterlife.

It seems to me that if the afterlife concept was ditched, most religions would be benign. Believing in an invisible parent, praying (asking God to suspend the laws of physics for a bit), attending church/mosque etc for social gatherings and mutual reassurance are all pretty harmless to society.

But to be a martyr? To spend your life as if you have some kind of second go at it?

My insomnia only leads to psychosis if... I'm going to kill you all!!!... I stop taking the tablets. The rest of the I'm I'm perfectly... I want to play with your entrails!!!... normal.


Tsk. Should've asked him how that's working out for the catholic church or the LDS who both have recent histories of covering up kiddie touchers among their flock/clergy


I do believe in God... I don't believe in organised religions, though, and I'm a staunch secularist.

Mother nature's DRM? I wonder how long it will take someone to crack that one.