another nail in our liberty's coffin or

Paleoliberal? Do you mean like a whig or something?

What is the alternative to random stop and searches? How about intelligence led community policing, whereby the police earn the respect of the community and are given information on who the knife carriers are? How about tackling the causes of ghettoisation?

It doesn't take a genius to work out that if you have an estate that is significantly poorer than the surrounding areas and that estate is populated mainly by one ethnicity, then they are there because they have less opportunities than people of other ethnicities. Unless one believes that black and asian people populate these estates because they are lazy and shiftless, which I don't believe is the case.

The reason that Escher is much less involved with violent crime is not that it is white, it is because the people living there have the opportunity to have a reasonable standard of living and start life with certain advantages of background over that of inner city working class children of any ethnicity.

You seem very pre-occupied with state persecution and that is a very Paleoliberal agenda.




That's all very good in theory, Foghorn but in the real world it doesn't work like that. Community led Policing can no longer be of any use for one simple reason: people have an inherent distrust of authority now. That coupled with the fact that for every 10 scumbags you have on an estate there are 100 decent people who don't want their families involved in any backlash for speaking to the Police.

I don't think that Britain suffers from 'Ghettoisation', I think it's lower income inhabitants see a sort of kinship with American 'ghettos' and their gang culture, owing to it's depiction in music and film, they see an appealing side and they think 'I'm a fairly poor person, that's me!' when in all truth it isn't. The more these arseholes are glorified the worse the problems will get.

I'm not going to play the 'I was raised working class' card, I don't like all that shite, but the truth of the matter is I, and everyone I know, grew up with working class parents during the 80's, there was recession, unemployment, war - you name it, but none of us went out behaving like young people today so often do. There were estates round my way that would make some today look like Butlins, but as the years have gone on, they've been pulled down and nicer, more socially appealing residencies have been built. So it really isn't a sign of the times in that sense.





I wasn't referring to Esher's crime rate by the way, I was saying that if the Police target a certain area you can pretty much guess the ethnic content before a single pocket's been turned out. So when there was a lot of trouble in Brixton in the 80's you can't honestly be surprised by the fact that most people stopped were Black.


You can try many things to solve a problem, but the first thing you must do is try to eliminate it's source. In this case people (not just young people) are carrying blades with relative impunity, unless they think they are likely to be randomly stopped, caught and punished they simply won't give up doing it. That's not to say that all of these people carrying knives are bad people; I'm sure a large percentage are carrying with them protection from an ever growing anti-social, bad element that seems to be taking hold in this country.

This post has been edited by m15hun: Aug 30 2008, 03:26 AM

As I'm sure you are aware the first ghettos were in Europe not America. When I refer to ghettoisation I mean the process where ethnic immigrants are forced into one area. In this country the motor for this process is economic: the residents of these various places effectively do not have a choice about where they live.

You mentioned that you were working raised in the working class, and from the way you speak you seem to suggest that you have become middle class. Congratulations. Thing is that you have enjoyed the opportunities which your parents and grandparents have created for you, they were here to enjoy all the benefits of the post war boom. Despite the recession of the eighties, an overall improvement in the standard of living was passed down generation to generation. For economic migrants that process is yet to happen.

So they have to take whatever accomodation they can afford, which practically means the accomodation no one else wants. They end up in already deprived areas. Their opportunities to move out again will probably not happen for five to ten years. Their children, often one of the motivations to imrpove their lot by migrating, end up competing for resources with other kids in the area. Anything that binds them together to create a team will inevitably become central to their identity, whether it be Ehthnicity or within that the island or city they moved from, or perhaps the specific housing block they have moved to. The parents typically have to work long hours and anti-social shifts. Maybe they aren't able to give these children a strong sense of family identity.

The rise of knife crime, as I believe has already been stated elsewhere is limited mainly to poor, urban areas where gang recruitment is high. I think that gangs form for the reasons I have outlined above, not because some kid saw a 50 Cent video. Gangs can be found throughout the world, often in places where access to gangsta rap and MTV is low, but you will always find high levels of poverty.

If we return to the Esher vs. Brixton comparison you can see that in Esher community policing certainly does work: the residents of Esher and the police have mutual respect and one would certainly expect anything untoward to be reported, and for the police to act upon that information in a way which wouldn't jeopordise the source. In Brixton, at least on the council estate off Cold Harbour Lane, you would expect the residents not to talk to the police because of the reasons that you highlighted. This is because over the course of generations, the residents have formed the opinion that they will not be protected by the police and that they are not respected by the police.

Part of this problem is caused by the fact that in time past those charged with policing the area were unabashedly racist, if not institutionally then personally, and made no distinction between law abiding black people and those with an openly criminal lifestyle. The stop and search operations were undertaken with no tact and a maximum of physical intrusiveness, and no attempt at building up cumulative intelligence from such stops was made, so that someone who was clearly non-criminal could not expect to build up a raport with local officers but instead would be stopped again and again by different officers, each time with the assumption of guilt.

There is no quick fix for the situation that has developed within many of these deprived communities, the best that can be done is to carry on providing real opportunites for economic improvement without resort to criminality. The idea that doing something, anything rather than nothing which drives these media led campaigns or moral panics as they are sometimes known, can often cause more harm than good as hastily debated measures given to underfunded police and local authorities to carry out often have horrible unintended results.

Far as I can see the only way to give police more power to effect lasting positive change is to put more police on the beat and keep those same police in one area to give some continuity of policing, build up community raport, which probably takes ten to twenty years to happen, and lastly to let those community based police have a significant say in how the area is policed rather than letting any tuppenny ha'penny politician have a go at formulating policy.

I understand what you mean, but one only has to look at the people up to no good to see that they don't come from 'ghetto' areas, they just think it's trendy to do so. Look at that shit-wit Asher D (of 'So Solid Crew' fame) he goes on about his ghetto lifestyle and fails to mention his childhood of frequent Caribbean holidays and education at the Sylvia Young school. Even as a pseudo famous person he still feels the need to put up a front; as he was found to be carrying a loaded firearm in 2001. He isn't poor, he isn't ill educated. I would go out on a limb and say that the lions share of people getting involved with knife and gun crime are from at least semi privileged backgrounds, and their macabre interest in violent sub-culture is entirely down to exposure to 'Gangsta' figures in the media. Gang culture in very poor areas is a different animal, in my view.



I work 50+ hours a week and not behind a desk. Don't make the mistake of thinking that because I've had an education I'm middle class. I've been lucky in the sense that I've always had a good motivation to read and learn, the things that have helped me learn are there for anyone - libraries, museums, galleries, etc. I certainly don't buy into the old 'I'm stupid because I haven't got money for an expensive education' thing, it's a total cop-out. I haven't been gifted what I have, I've earned it. Just the same as anyone else can.

As I mentioned last post, 99% of people in my primary and secondary schools were from council estates, and most of them/us still live on them. I don't think it's viable to blame a criminal demeanour on where you live, you are who you choose to be.

Your point about Police being tactless in their approach to Ethnic minority policing in the past is spot on, and I would say is a massive problem that needs to be tackled as importantly as any other. I don't think it should get in the way of these proposed stop and search directives though, if anything this should give our Police services a chance to show how the job should be done, and start making amends for their ham-fisted past.

He is conforming to media stereotype that sells. I agree that some of the ways in which UK culture mimics US culture is problematic but that is mostly outside the point of this thread. What does concern us here is that Asher D got caught up in a media feeding frenzy and hype concerning gun crime. Look at it, as far back as 2001.

Now we're being told that "knife-crime" is a terryfying new craze. If you look at the history of these moral panics you will find that new media friendly labels are being developed for slight variations on robbery or gang fighting evry couple of years. I am old enough to remember when mugging first became a big issue here. I'm sure that street robbery had always occurred in London, probably for as long as there's been a London. We knew about mugging from the States, it was in the Batman TV series even. But when the label started to be used to describe the crime here there was a to do. a panic. The swamp operation in Brixton was to tackle mugging.

You remember "steaming"? It's basically "mugging" being done at speed by a large gang. Sometimes on trains but reaching its nadir at the Notting Hill Carnival the year they had very bad trouble. Once again, social problem, media hype, police over-response and you get a bad situation.

"Happy Slapping" there's another one, it's basically assault which is filmed on a mobile phone.

All these behaviours are basically either assault or robbery which has been around for centuries, packaged by the media for consumption by the public and then you get an upsurge in that particular format for crime. The public stirred up by the media will demand a response, a quick fix. The politicians and police will provide one, sometimes well intentioned, sometimes cynically designed to help another agenda, but pretty much always half baked.



Yeah, I think you might be quite a long way out on the limb with that one.


I think perhaps you underestimate the advantages that you have successfully exploited. First of all you speak English as a first language. This is a pretty big thing educationally, and I think that all the other opportunities that you have had have followed on from this.

I, like you, was educated in a state comprehensive school but have acheived a higher degree of understanding about things and a broader general knowledge because the family I came from has not only always prized learning, but was also provided the intellectual stimulation that makes it second nature. If your parents were ill educated, even if they wanted better for you it is more difficult for them to take part in your developement.

There's also the matter of many immigrants having a similar attitude to our grandparents and great grandparents generation where school was just an impediment to going out and earning. I agree that lack of money needn't be any impediment to recieving a schooling but being in an environment in which learning is not valued above street smarts and earning power is a big obstacle, and those environments are invariably ones where money is hard to come by.



The problem is that since the last cycle where these powers were given we have new police and new children. Neither of them will have the experience to know how to go about the situation and will be relying on folk memories of the bad old days to inform them of how it goes down. Giving inexperienced police more weight to throw around isn't necessarily going to give them the people skills they will need to become good police officers.

You are missing the point entirely... the riots were caused by the police. A whole community does not rise-up against the police unless its trust in that force has irrevocably broken down and it sees them as the enemy.

How can a police force hope to control the crime in a community that it has sparked riots with by using the very policing practices we're talking about here? The simple answer is, they can't. In order to police effectively, the constabulary needs the consent of the community (hence the enshrined British concept of policing by consent)... therefore, as a means of controlling crime, random and unrestricted stop & search powers are counter productive.

IMVHO, the police should not be allowed to stop and search ANY person who is lawfully going about their business. This doesn't mean that the police should be given the benefit of the doubt if they come up with the "he was suspected of blah blah" or whatever (like they do now) it means, they should only be allowed to search if the suspect has committed an arrestable offence and is about to be taken into custody.

Giving the police more power every time the Daily Mail or the Sun newspapers write a snotty editorial is a bad thing... In fact, giving police more powers is, in almost every instance, a bad thing for civil liberties and should be vigourosly resisted.

The UK police forces were set up to maintain the Queen's peace, and this is still (technically) their primary role... if the extra powers they've been given actually counter this role, then we need to seriously think about permanently stripping them of that power and having a complete rethink.

The increase in knife and gun crime may be negligible to some at 4 more offences than the previous year but it's enough for me to feel concerned as a member of the public and a parent. An increase is an increase. As I said before, I don't want this situation to be necessary but I'm happy to contribute if it will help get the job done. I know the media blow things up out of proportion and are nearly always the driving force behind ridiculous new Policing initiatives but when a step is being taken towards a common good I feel that's something I can look past.

While we're debating the nature of whether stop and search is right or wrong, none of us has made a firm statement as to whether it will help solve the problem or not. I, for one, think it will. Merely the threat of being randomly stopped will be enough to stop the casual weapon carrying individual off, which is a good step in itself, in my view.

The reason I go out on a limb with that statement is because I don't feel that poverty, in every sense of the word, is that prevalent in the U.K. Sure, it's there and people are suffering in some places but it isn't a huge amount. I wasn't suggesting that the majority of violent criminals were middle class, I was saying that the majority aren't from 'ghetto' areas (if there is such a thing).

With regard to the nature of offences taking place; I'm not talking about 'mugging' or 'happy slapping' (which is far more than just assault filmed on a camera, it's social ramifications run a lot deeper in my opinion) I'm talking about the instances of young boys being taken aside by a group, beaten and stabbed repeatedly. 14 offences have taken place this year along those lines, more than half have been black youth on black youth - this is alarming!



No I'm well aware that speaking English is a good thing, but seeing as I live in England I refuse to accept that it's somehow made me a privileged case. I got my first job at 12 and have worked ever since, I don't see what that has to do with whether you choose to read a book of an evening or go down the pub. There are enough resources freely available in this country for anyone to learn, and that includes resources in Hindi, Gujarati, Farsi, Somali, French, Welsh, German, Belgian, Polish etc. etc. Anyone who says they're too poor to educate themselves simply doesn't want to. There are three Polish people who work with me and two of them are studying at our local college, because they want to.



No, I'm not, I fully understand that hamfisted Policing methods caused a community uprising, I refuse to believe it was caused only by the stop and search though. The social discontent that caused that problem was generated over years, not afternoons, it was generated by inherent racism in all authorities, not just the police. It was frustration. Foghorn stated that the Police 'swamped Brixton, stopping and searching young, Black males'. I merely pointed out that in all fairness that's what's going to happen if you do blanket stops and searches in a predominantly black area.



As I've said before, I don't know what the secret weapon is in tackling knife crime, all I know is that doing nothing isn't helping.



At the risk of alarming you, I agree. A rethink of Police powers and responsibilities has been necessary for years. For their sake as well as the sake of the general public.

That doesn't mean that sometimes there won't be the need for a harder level of Policing, sometimes they need to kick a door down or stop a few lines of traffic for questioning, which brings me round to my opening point: I don't mind the inconvenience as long as the motivation is honourable.

This post has been edited by m15hun: Aug 30 2008, 01:00 PM

That's the problem, the police are human not machines so they can never be fully impartial. They will always back up their buddy even if they know he is wrong... Once they criminalise a community it becomes very easy to justify just about anything...

Humans will always have prejudices, I agree there. The point you make just highlights the need for stricter recruitment and vetting. You can't vet the general population though, there will always be those that, like a prejudiced Policeman, will take exception to anything and everything and do their best to punish someone for what they see as an injustice..it's a bit of a circle really.

This post has been edited by m15hun: Sep 1 2008, 11:47 AM

Exactly and thats why we need procedures like due cause... To protect innocent people from harassment form the very people employed by them to protect them..... Stop and search without due cause allows the shoddy police officers to abuse their position of trust .........

Just about everything in that paragraph deserves a round of applause, mate

What do you propose to tackle the ongoing trend of carrying illegal, concealed weapons then mate? Also, we haven't really touched on the fact that the Police Constabulary need protecting just as much as the public do, they are, after all just people trying to do a job.

The police get to legally carry CS gas, telescopic metal bats, tasers, and sometimes even firearms. On top of that, they very rarely get prosecuted successfully (if at all) for misusing any of these things... including the time a bunch of them held some guy down on a tube train and shot him in the face 8 times at point blank range because he was wearing a coat in the summer. If that wasn't enough, the establishment (magistrates, judges, the CPS etc) utterly fail to believe that the police are capable of doing any wrong at all, let alone lying, being vindictive or acting in an unlawful or conspirational way.

On top of them already having virtually no real accountability because of this, I think the police have more than enough protection already, thank you very much.

And now for an impartial, sensible answer perhaps?

Fair enough... All coppers are godlike paragons of virtue, eminently accountable and not at all tools of the establishment with too much power. Most people who complain about their ever increasing powers turning them into unaccountable gang members in uniform, are simply not fit to lick the sweat of their balls... In order to protect these overworked good Samaritans, we should remove even more of our civil liberties, increase their powers further and issue them all with some kind of cattle-prods that they have a legal right to use without limit, question or public accountability. At night, or in times of emergency (for example, during riots induced by cattle-prods) these should be replaced with shotguns.

Better or worse?



My answer WAS sensible... I believe the police have too much power and too little accountability. How is questioning that not sensible in a society that cherishes civil liberties?

As for impartial... when you say impartial towards the police, do you mean "as in a way that offers them slavish support" (a la The Sun editorial) rather than pointing out FACTUAL elements of their nature which are worthy of criticism?

No, I mean give an answer without tarring every man-jack of them as violent, racist bigots who do nothing but hurt others. I know several Police Officers and to a man they are decent, down to earth blokes who got into the job for the right reasons. There isn't a racist or a bigot among them.

Also, as you know impartiality isn't simply pointing out the bad, it's accepting that there are two sides. In previous discussions (one pertaining to revenge, I believe it was) you spent a fair few posts going on about not taking the law into your own hands, calling the authorities, etc. etc. and here you are calling them all the useless scumbags in the world, get a grip man!

Whenever anyone mentions anything to do with the forces, or any public servant all you do is go off on a tangent, moaning about how they're all slaves to this and thugs to that. Get off your high horse and visit the planet earth now and again.

Also, I've asked you before and I'll ask you again; don't ramp on about my opinion and dismiss it as something I picked straight up from a fucking comic like the Sun, I find it extremely insulting and patronising. Having been censured for my responses to your inflammatory comments in the past I shan't say any more than this, except to say that as a moderator you should be party to the rules you enforce.

Hmm..a weird comparison just flew through my head quickly then..

This post has been edited by m15hun: Sep 1 2008, 05:51 PM

Since living in a working class estate I've come to realise that I'm treated differently once I give my address. I don't want to go into the details but many encounters with the police have left me with a very negetive attitute towrads them... I realise that this is a self fufilling proficy and that my attuitde will effect theres and vica verca.... That's the point.... these men (like you and me) are taught to be more agressive and move physical when arresting subjects they are hyped up before an encounter and because of that we need laws to protect us from the protectors... Impartiality is a gift only posessed by creatures without emotion or compassion...

To answer a previous question

We need investment in inner city education we need police on the streets meeting those kids and building relationships with them... We need to get minority youths into jobs and give them self worth... We need to make inner city areas enjoyable places to live.. We need to move from a "Sure the dole i' pay it" to Give me a chance to work....

Find out how much our caring labour government has spent on needless, illegal, warmongering and nuclear submarines against the wishes of the majority of the public, that would have gone some way to helping.....Instead of the cheaper bully boy tactics less police with more power..I'm not suggesting that the poice arn't human they're just given the wrong tools....

This post has been edited by bigbaldybloke: Sep 1 2008, 05:57 PM

As I said though, I went to a comprehensive, grew up on an estate and still live there. Plenty of my friends, that went the same schools as me are now Police locally, because it's a good job and they have a chance to give something back to the community. By tarring them with the same brush as the old racist, violent thugs you're being no better than the people you're condemning.



That I agree with 100%, but as I said above, lads that I grew up with are Police themselves, what's that if it isn't encouraging?

If your own are taken on surely things can't be as bad as you're making out?

I've had run ins with the law, and they haven't always been positive experiences I can assure you, but that doesn't mean I walk away and lock into the frame of mind that all Coppers are bastards any more than I would tar all Blacks as drug peddlers or Albanians as muggers based upon isolated experiences that I have had.

This post has been edited by m15hun: Sep 1 2008, 05:49 PM

Where did I say this? Show me!

I said the police have too much power and not enough accountability. My argument IS (and always has been) that increasing police powers is an unnecessary step that infringes our civil liberties and doesn't tackle the issues (and is, in fact, counter productive to curing the original problem)


I'm sorry, it was not meant to be

I merely pointed out (as broadly as I could) that the sort of blanket support for establishment authority, is a POV more at home in a Sun editorial than a reasoned debate. I was not implying (under any circumstances) that you get your opinions from such sources.


I am

If you feel my comments were inflammatory and a breach of the rules, then by all means make a complaint to Geeker or Snookered. I know that you probably wont believe me, but I really can assure you that they are honourable and good people who will deal with your complaint in EXACTLY the same fair and even-handed way as if you had made it about any other member.

I wonder how many of them were black or asian

The point that I'm trying to make however badly is that if there is even just One bent coper or One bully we need laws to protect us from them.. God policing is born from respect, commitment, integerity, honesty... Not from poor laws that strip people of their civil liberties..We need Laws that give the majority of good police guidelines to follow irrespective of the fact that their wife has left them or their dog has died or their mate was killed by a drunk driver.

I would find it highly unlikely if most police officers hadn't lied, even just a little white lie, or looked the other way to secure an arrest or save a fellow officer.. My father and uncle were police officers so I know a little of what goes on and it would shock you to find out just what some officers are prepared to do....

Alieniating people because of their post code isn't going to work to reduce knife crime but it could increse gun crime as these neighbourhoods become more closed to the police...

This post has been edited by bigbaldybloke: Sep 1 2008, 07:30 PM