another nail in our liberty's coffin or

You have inferred more than once that the Police force are racist and corrupt. I'm not saying that there aren't some corrupt officers, of course there are but you must accept the good and the bad in all people. We've had this self same conversation about people who serve in the armed services, you just can't accept that there are good people, doing things for honest, genuine motives and if i'm honest i find your attitude towards people who risk their lives, day-in, day-out protecting you and your family, as well as the rest of us pretty appalling.



I don't have a blanket support for establishment authority. I will argue my point with the law of this land as much as I'll argue my point with you. The one thing I do have is respect for people that have earned it. In this case (and similarly in the case regarding the armed forces) I find you speaking out of turn and using broad strokes to demonise a group of people as a whole and you're plainly in the wrong.

You can no more label all Police as racist, power hungry and violent than you can all Yorshiremen as tight-fisted.




Only one of them (out of 6) was Asian, we didn't have a very diverse community in my area when I was young. But as I said earlier, they're all thoroughly decent, honest blokes. I'm not just saying that.

We do need laws to protect us from the bent coppers and bullies, just as we need the laws to protect us from violent criminals, to me it's a matter of finding a middle ground that works, at the moment we don't have very much protection from either one of the two.

We do, how often have you been the victim of violent crime and how often has it impacted on your life... For most of us it's seldom.. Most crime we encounter is opportunist or stealth... Violent criminals usually harm other violent criminals or direct their time on corporate crimes.... This is why harsher laws that victimise innocent people are wrong... A sixteen year old hoodie isn't necessarily a violent criminal just because he carries a knife, but harass him long enough and he soon will be.... That why we need proper police not hired thugs. You can't stop and search someone with dignity or make them feel good about the procedure "because it's for their own good". I'm sure any of your friends involved in these events would be hated in the communities where this happens... This would lead to a negative attitude to and from the police...

I saw a cops in the sky show, in Bristol, where cops were perusing a stolen van it stopped at lights and one of the officers got out and rushed the drivers door. The driver got out dazed and quite subdued the two officers were yelling at him, man handling him, and shoved him face first into the side of the van.. All an overreaction due to all the hype.... One officer actually punched the air yelling "I love this job". The police are being trained to go in hard because of all the supposed scenarios, looking to America for guidance...

This post has been edited by bigbaldybloke: Sep 2 2008, 10:47 AM

I have implied no such thing... I have, more than once, plainly stated that I believe the police have too much power and not enough accountability. It is YOU that has erroneously inferred that that statement means something else.

You see, the problem isn't that I've implied any of what you're claiming I have... it's that you see all criticism of the uniformed service as slander. Plain and simple.


Tough! I refuse to fawn over people in uniform just because you think I owe them something. None of these people are pressed men, they are (every single man jack of 'em) well paid, willing volunteers.

FFS, the police are not even in the top ten list of dangerous jobs... they are the same risk as any bog standard normal working person... Riggers, divers, drivers, miners, fishermen and merchant sailors etc etc, all have far more dangerous jobs:

"A study by researchers at Oxford University has found people working on the sea are up to 50 times more likely to die while working, compared those in other jobs.

Their jobs are much more hazardous than those in the construction or manufacturing industries and also a lot less safe than working for the police, army or fire brigade. "

 jobs.gif ( 3.83K ) Number of downloads: 1


Statistically (deaths per 100,000) the uniformed services are generally no more dangerous professions than your average Joe's job, and far less dangerous than many others who (IMO) offer society just as valuable a service as some squaddie or flatfoot.

As is the psyche of the so called disciplined services, they tend to over hype their jobs far better than those that actually do dangerous jobs.

I owe these people nothing... I certainly don't owe them some fawning respect based on hype. And I definitely don't feel inclined to surrender more of my civil liberties in order to give these people even more power that they don't need and don't deserve.

This post has been edited by yourmercifulgod: Sep 2 2008, 11:43 AM

The laws already exist the problem is the way they are implemented.

Exactly, laws that have been around for years, we don't need new laws, society is no more violent than is was in 1749 when the bow st runners were formed... There are laws in place to protect our civil liberty and give guidelines to the police on how to act. Giving them more authority to combat hyped up "terror on our streets" is not what is required.... Laws that were reformed in the 1920's and revised in the 1980's due largely to the overreaction of the police at the Brixton riots....Calling for more integrated policing in the community as the heavy handed approach doesn't work....

This post has been edited by bigbaldybloke: Sep 2 2008, 02:21 PM

I'm going to set up a vigilante group targeting local street gangs... all I need now is my box of government approved "Gang Spotter Guidebooks" and me and the lads with our bits of 4 by 2 are ready to hit the street corners...

This post has been edited by eazbak: Sep 2 2008, 02:47 PM

Quote from the guide


his son is 35 ffs

This post has been edited by bigbaldybloke: Sep 2 2008, 03:26 PM

To accuse the Police force of unpunished murder isn't inferring corruption? Well do forgive me, I must have totally the wrong end of the stick.

Let me put something to you, it's a totally true instance:

My closest friend is a Police Officer, he joined up after reading History at University, he could have walked into any number of high paid jobs and led a thoroughly well fed lifestyle. He isn't a combative person, he doesn't go out looking for fights. He isn't racist or bigoted. He chose to join the Police Force because he felt it was a profession that needed more decent people and less wannabe Rambo characters.

He took his training, passed with flying colours and joined out local constabulary. Whilst out patrolling he was called to our local Sainsbury to deal with a known, drug addict who has served sentences for violent and sexual crime, he was being physically and verbally abusive to anyone within earshot. My friend arrived with his colleague and was pelted with glass bottles before subduing the man who then proceeded to bite him being H.I.V. positive, with the intention of doing as much harm as possible.

He arrested the man and with his evidence contributed to him receiving a lengthier custodial sentence (although far from an adequate one, for a crime like that in my view).

He then had to wait 6 months, not knowing whether he had been doomed by this pathetic, evil fuckwit. The whole time he continued to go out and do his job.

Does this not merit respect?

I'm not preaching blind loyalty, I'm trying to put the point to you that doubting all Police is entirely destructive, and your attitude is one which will stand in the way of our Police improving their relations with the public. You can barry on about them as much as you like but you are as much to blame for the negative environment in which we live as the corrupt Police that you complain about.

It has nothing to do with how dangerous a job is. It has to do with the motivation one has in taking such a job.

This post has been edited by m15hun: Sep 2 2008, 03:33 PM

Yes and sometimes that motivation is money, power, status whatever.... That's why laws are put in place to see that the public are treated fairly by all police officers irrespective of their motives for joining... It's horrific that anyone should be bitten at all, let alone by a violent HIV+ junkie.. But doctors get bitten too or the patient moves while the dr is injecting a needle to try and stick them.. There are Excellent Dr's and there are crap Dr's, that's why there are laws put in place to give them working guidelines, to protect them and the public.....

So would I be right in saying that your friend felt the job could do with a few fewer not decent people and wannabe Rambo characters?

@ Foghorn

I've never disagreed that some Police are violent, racist..whatever. What I did contest was that there are good Police out there and we must give them a chance to do their jobs without condemning them based upon what others have done.

BTW thanks for 42pt bold in the quote, i nearly forgot what I wrote..



I respect those individuals too.

This post has been edited by m15hun: Sep 2 2008, 04:12 PM

Ask your friend about the "canteen culture" and see what he has to say about it. As I have said elsewhere, the danger is that that the more able individuals get promoted and that can lead to a situation where longer serving but less able individuals are policing with inexperienced recruits. Even if the new recruit is not inclined to be gung-ho they will face peer pressure to go along with the common agenda, whatever it happens to be at that nick. I know policemen too, fairly decent individuals as it happens, but they had no illusions about many of those they worked with. I think it is fair to say that the majority of the police, good and bad, end up with a jaundiced "everybody's guilty" outlook on life and this makes stop and search problematic.

As for respect: that has to be earned and doesn't just come with the uniform, whatever job you do.

Nope, it's me, stating outright, that there is insufficient accountability for the police... re-read my posts.

Nobody was really held accountable. Several officers pinned de Menezes down while others put their guns to his face and emptied 11 dumdum rounds into it... The most the IPCC could come up with was to say that the force had violated his health and safety!!!!

I'm not implying that there is corruption, I'm saying - and have been saying - that the establishment is utterly incapable of believing that the police are capable of any real wrongdoing.

As long as that continues, the police can never be truly held accountable for their actions... under those circumstances alone, it is completely inappropriate to give them any further powers. There is also a compelling moral argument for stripping them of many of their existing powers too.


Yeah, Yeah, I've heard it all before... My father in law retired from the Police 2 years ago after 25 years and you'll never meet a more mellow and even handed guy... He will however, be the first to tell you himself of the dangers of putting the police force on a pedestal or trying on the "a few bad apples" argument to mask the aforementioned canteen culture.

Foghorn is right, respect doesn't come with the uniform, it is earned... Riots are not a sign of respect, and giving the police more powers is not the way to garner respect and cooperation within the communities that are being policed.

I'd just like to ask, at what point did I say that I respect people because of the uniform they wear? I took exception to your (YMG) apparent inability to respect anyone that doesn't fall into your own strict bracket of right and wrong.

In order for the community Policing idea to work the one thing we need to have is mutual respect. Not an utter contempt and lack of faith.

Try re-reading my posts and see what you come up with.

If you want to discuss the Menezes case I'd be interested to, but I don't think this thread is the correct place to do it.

This post has been edited by m15hun: Sep 3 2008, 12:42 AM

Implicit within Stop and Search is a lack of respect and an assumption of guilt. The police do not stop and search middle aged middle-class people without very good reasons, and if they started to you'd find that they'd loose their powers very quickly. You see most middle class people find being stopped and searched disrespectful and insulting, because quite simply it is.

You earn respect and that's something that the police are very bad at. I believe it has something to do with the attitude that comes with having power and little accountability.

I agree to an extent, but we do have to allow them the chance to redeem themselves.

yeah but not by granting them more power.... and power that is by nature racist and classist..

feel free to mention the Menezes case I started the thread and it's sort of going round in circles now anyway.....

As I said at the beginning, I'm not for granting powers off-hand and for no good reason but young people are doing themselves a damage and something needs to be done briskly, building up community relations is definitely important but it isn't going to be an easy job. What do you propose in terms of immediate response?