Teen Pregnancy - Abortion

Before YMG splits this off from the Sarah Palin thread, I thought I'd make it a topic because it's very disturbing to me that some people feel abortion is just another method of birth control. It is inconceivable to me how many here can condemn me for supporting the death penalty to remove child killers from society and the gene pool, yet have no qualms regarding teenagers sucking babies out of their wombs in chunks and shreds, killing an innocent life.

I am a conservative Christian. I have raised 5 children with a 6th still at home. Every one of my children has been armed with biological knowledge of their bodies and reproductive systems and fortified with the advice that I believe God wants us all to heed - ABSTINENCE FROM SEX IS THE ONLY 100% EFFECTIVE WAY NOT TO GET PREGNANT!

With all my children I have always been open about sex. I've told them it's a perfectly natural and healthy bodily function. It is the most enjoyable sensation that the human body can experience. But like all things that are pleasurable it has its consequences if not used wisely. I try to make my children understand that sex is a power, the power to create another human life, and with that power comes great responsibility. I teach my sons and daughters the same because the consequence of unwanted or unplanned pregnancy is just as devastating when a male misuses this power, as it is a female. In other words, there is no double standard. I don't expect a male child to have sex for 'experience' or the relief of 'blue balls' any of the other lame reasons that teenage boys give girls while they're begging for sex.

I also don't wait for my kids to be given sex information in public schools. US public schools all have programs where kids are taught the basic information about puberty and maturation. They're taught about sperm and ovum and how they're related to the creation of life. They teach about hormones and various methods of birth control and they strenuously warn of sexually transmitted diseases. Where I fear they cross the line, like all other conservatives, is that they teach that abortion is the most effective solution to ending a pregnancy.

I also don't particularly want the public schools teaching my kids that homosexuality is a perfectly acceptable, alternative choice, because to me it's not. While I don't personally have any ill will towards homosexuals, I would never wish the difficult life of being gay on any of my children. I have always tried to instill in my children the profound differences in genders and acceptance for the one they were created with. I wish my daughters to be secure and content in their role as female and my sons in their roles as males. Fortunately all my children are heterosexual and that's a bridge I never had to cross.

Even though I've always been open about sex with the kids, I have still taken special time with each one, usually around the age of 11 (before the hormones of puberty kick in) to have 'the talk' with them. I didn't schedule an appointment or let on that I had an agenda, but I chose a private time alone with the child to go through everything thoroughly and let them ask questions. The first two kids were awkward. They're boys and I felt it was the father's place to speak with the boys, but my ex wouldn't do it saying I'd be better at it than him.

My daughter, the one who later got pregnant, was fine. She understood perfectly what she was doing. She used her body to try and force a man to commitment - and thank God it didn't work. She did not have an abortion and I have a beautiful grandson whom I adore. Even now it makes me cry to think she could have killed that child and I'm profoundly grateful and proud of her that she chose not to. She is too.

My last three kids, I've raised as a single mother. The teenage daughter is now out in the world fornicating her little heart out. Many of you know I adopted her when she was 9 and she's had a hard life. I'm afraid I wasn't able to make much of a difference in it for her. But I still did not deviate from my own personal standards. She was treated the same as all my other children. When it was obvious she was flatly rejecting all I offered her, I did force her to get on birth control.

My youngest son is now 12 and he's a delight. We're both watching his maturation process and he's excited that his voice is changing and he's sprouting fuzz in places he's never had hair. At the dinner table he likes to try and sound like a man and marvels at the differences in his voice even between yesterday and today. I have tried to teach him respect for his body and the bodies of girls and respect for the power of procreation. We've talked about erections and masturbation and STD's and birth control and pregnancies and that ABSTINENCE IS THE BEST METHOD OF BIRTH CONTROL. What he does with all this information now it all up to him.

I'm interested to know how others got their information about sex and more importantly, how you will teach your own children and what you'll expect from them.

Be a man or get sterilised...... are also quite effective....

However, I agree with most of what you said however imposing any moral standards on society as a whole brings us closer to a Taleban world.... No nail polish because it makes you a harlot etc... I cannot justify laws based on a male perspective being forced on young ladies.... What in the case of a rape, should the lady be forced to live for nine months with a rapists child inside her... What if a pregnancy threatens the life of the mother...
Then there's the whole every sperm is sacred... No masturbation guys, all those dead sperm not even given a chance, no contraception because the church decrees it.....

The right to choose is basic right of any FREE society and peoples choices may not fit into our moral guidelines but they should still have those choices....

Yes, education is the way forward, but criminalising young girls because they choose not to commit to a pregnancy is a Dickensian approach to family planning....

About sex education: my parents told me the basics, and in first class we had some lessons about birth control and std's.

In my opinion an unwanted baby in the womb is somewhere in the line of a tapeworm or another parasite that makes your body weak and should be removed. If you don't want to raise/can't raise a baby and you don't want to go trough a pregnancy (with serveral months of hindered mobility) then just remove it. It's better for you and the child. You can always make a new one, their are enough eggs in you (one or more a month till you're 40-50). I also think the God hypothesis has no basis and you shouldn't base laws on some (old) book. I don't think their is a secret wizard community either.

What I find strange is that you're pro-death penalty for a full grown individual but you have problems with removing a sack of cells (Yes, I witnessed an abortion, I know how it's done. The device is called a morcelator). I also saw some nice in-womb video feeds.

An unborn child is no more individual then a smart parrot or so. You kill off your pets all the time if they get sick, and nobody has problems with that. Also, I'm pro-euthanasia for the same reason. If your pets suffer you kill them off, but if your granddad suffers more you let him life even if he wants to die.

I'm against the death penalty, because that's just a mercy killing. Let people rot in prison for the rest of their miserable lives (talk about cruel punishment). Death penalty is not a punishment.



Sometimes you're forced. What then?


Last point: You shoot out loads of sperms all the time, 99.9999% or so die anyway. Who cares if the 0.0001% dies as well?

and another thing with out turning this into a pick on PJB thread does the bible not clearly state "Thou shalt not kill" it's not up for negotiation, is very specific and yet totally ignored for some "Just" causes but branded to others.....

Let keep a work of fiction out of this please and base it on real world arguments

I was using a quote from the bible in answer to PJB's post.. As she, being a Christian, bases most if not all her moral decisions on it, so I thought it was relevant... However aren't you lucky that you live in a very tolerant society which allows you the freedom of choice to decide for yourself to believe or not.... And, wasn't it the Dutch that gave us the massed produced bible with the invention of the printing press..

Nope was a German. Printing a popular book is a good way to make money, nothing against that.

Anyway back on topic I got nothing to say atm, waiting for pjb's stance

Chapter XXIII The First Complete English Bible Printed at Antwerp, 1527-1535, as a Missionary Work of the Dutch. Miles Coverdale in the Service of Jacob van Meteren.

link

this must be what i was thinking of...

I understand it is difficult for many of you to see my viewpoint solely because you don't understand my faith, but I can tell you Jakster, that my faith is not based upon an old book as you call it. My faith is based upon real feelings within me and experiences that I've had in my 56 years of life. I hope it doesn't offend you but as I was reading what you wrote I realized that I could have written the same thing when I was your age, so I totally understand how you feel. I wonder if perhaps your thoughts and attitudes might change when you're in your 50's and have had a family with children and grandchildren of your own.

Having had children, I could never think of a life within me as a meaningless sack of cells. Loving children as I do, it pains me to think of the millions of babies that are destroyed by abortion - especially when there are so many who wait and yearn to adopt. I think if any teenager or even any woman consents to sexual intercourse and is not fully prepared to raise a child, then the ONLY alternative should be adoption. Abortion is murder in my world.

Still, I know abortion will still happen, no matter how I feel about it and I do believe that I should not impose my moral values on others who do not feel as I do. Women should have a right to choose. What no one has a right to is to ask me to support murder by taking my tax dollars to support abortion clinics that allow pregnant women to use abortion as a method of birth control. IF YOU WANT TO HAVE SEX AND DON'T WANT THE CONSEQUENCE OF A PREGNANCY OR BABY, THEN ACCEPT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF PAYING FOR YOUR OWN ACTIONS WITH YOUR OWN MONEY!!!

And in the event of rape, I can say that if the mother to be were a Christian, she'd more than likely consider the life of the resulting unborn child, sacred and God's will. Also, the hormones that rage through a woman's body from nearly the moment of conception do a lot for making the woman instinctually protective. I think most women would recognize the fetus as 1/2 her own DNA as well. If after overcoming all the physiological instincts a woman still insisted on an immediate abortion, I personally wouldn't have any problem with even a state funded abortion. Likewise if the unborn child was endangering the life of the mother - but there's no way I'd condone state paid abortion for a woman who says, "My life is endangered because if I have this child, I'll kill myself."

And as for BBB's reference to "Thou shalt not kill" you have to understand that I am LDS and a slightly different brand of Christianity. 'Mormons' believe that the Bible is correct only as far as it is translated correctly. The Bible has passed through many hands in the many centuries and has been rewritten, edited, condensed and modified by many. The Book of Mormon, on the other hand, which is used as a companion to the Holy Bible, King James Version, has only been translated once and we believe that it was translated by revelations directly from God. The Book of Mormon clearly designates certain instances where God condescends to allow the taking of life. 1 Ne. 4: 13, Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

In summation, I personally believe that abortion is murder, but if another chooses to end a life in that manner, I do not judge or condemn them. That only God can do. My own mother has had an abortion (which she cannot speak of to this day, without tears. She deeply regrets the decision). I just abjectly refuse to support that decision in any manner, specifically funding it with my tax dollars.

hunny Antwerp is Belgium not The Netherlands

As for the whole discussion i just want to add my opinion , Abortion isnt another method of birth control but when the mother is unable or unwilling to raise the kid well then she should have one.

There are rules for ppl when they want to buy a dog or a cat but no rules to get yourself a kid..... i watched trainspotting the other day i was discusted by the addicted mother who let her kid die among all that drugs laying about. Is that a way to raise a kid ? noway in a world like that she should have ended the pregnancy before the kid was even born and before the cel could be called a baby.

A firend of mine got raped and she had the result of it aborted and still she is coping with the knowledge she got raped but has a new kid made out of love and she loves him dearly .

Dont ever condamm woman who have an abortion , you never know why they had it and please leave god out of a discussion like this , it's not god who makes us feel the way we do about it , but the way we look upon the world ..... open your eyes and use commen dicency and normal values.

Listen you...don't get smart with me...lol

As I pointed out I got some of my facts confused...... The first full edition of the bible was commisoned by Dutch missionaies in dutch and printed in Belgium....Hope this clears any further ambiguity.....




Yes and that is intererupted by MEN who will use their own sets of values to use certain verses to justify their actions..... The holy Koran is used by some muslims to excuse sucide bombers, genocide, and any other atrocity that takes their fancy.....

Do you agree the the ten commandments are the words of God or are they confused through translation...

The problem with circular belief systems is just that vague comments made in "Holy books" can be used to justify any behaviour... What is a rightouts purpose, who decides. The Taleban would swear to rightous God given concent to do their works... Hitler quoted the bible... Osama bin laden would claim to be doing Gods work in a holy war... Just because you really really believe something dosen't make it right...

Thats why in free societies we need to give people the right to choose.... The people that committed sucide in Jonestown believed that he was a prophet speaking Gods words from a holy book.... You have the right to choose to bring up your children with your valves and the right to air those values on places like this.... But to try and impose those values on any other living soul and you become the extremest.... It's ok to murder a villian but not ok to remove some cells from a mother unable to cope with pregnancy.... I am not advocating abortion, I don't agree with it as a form of birth control, however it needs to be allowed for girls who don't have my morals or my values... It's not right for me to impose it on them... A very good friend of mine had a abortion and I told her my views because she asked for my opinion....I also told her I would support her 100% whatever HER choice.... (the reasons for the abortion are unimportant to everyone but her so thats why I didn't mention them)



This post has been edited by bigbaldybloke: Sep 8 2008, 11:16 AM

That's not strictly true, is it.... Harris "lost" 116 pages and Smith had to (conveniently) insert an abridged version (just in case the originals were compared and found not to be word-for-word translations as they were claimed to be).

It's funny you should mention that YMG, in the same context as BBB mentions the 10 commandments. Did you know there were more than 10 commandments?

Moses was given a full set of commandments to live by, by God on Mt. Sinai. He hiked down the mountain to give them to his people and found they'd gotten impatient and went back to the religions they'd been raised with in Egypt. They had such little faith, even after the miracles they'd witnessed. When Moses saw them, he got pissed and threw the tablets down and broke them. Then he hiked back up the mountain to report in and tell God what he already knew. The people were weak and could not abide by the full doctrines and laws that God had placed before them for their salvation. So God condensed the commandments down into ten simple rules he hoped people could live by. And even the majority of them are ignored by most everyone.

The missing chapters of the Book of Mormon are not much different than the missing commandments. God was pissed that JS disobeyed him and contended with him. Having that part of the scriptures and doctrine withheld from us was the consequence of the early saints not being fully prepared to accept, obey and adhere to what was taken. And don't you find it odd that what was stolen, NEVER surfaced? I believe that it's been restored and I know most of what was there, but I also know that most of the world isn't ready for it yet.

And Lut, please read my entire previous post. I do not condemn those who have had abortions. I have pity and compassion for them. I am angered only by those like the drug addicted birth mother that BBB cited who abort out of sheer self-centered laziness. Adoption is always preferable to me.

Furthermore, asking me to leave my faith in God out of the issue is like asking me to stay out of LPP. If my religion offends you, I suggest you not read my posts.

Whilst on the subject of belief @pink, I don't think belief in abstinence is as effective as belief in other methods of birth control (condoms, birth-control pills etc) To expect any normal homone-fuelled pair of teenagers to practice such restraint is hopeful at best. More of an article of faith on the parent's part, really.

Some (like myself) would say that teenage safe sexual experimentation before settling down to a permanent relationship is actually quite a good thing, perhaps promoting more stable marriage later on, with less "wishful" affairs.

I've never quite understood why men want to marry a virgin (other than because of their own insecurity) as the wedding night must be quite a disappointment!

I hope you don't think I quoted you out of context.

Who waaaaa when did I cite a drug addicted birthmother

You didn't, PJB made a mistake.

Personally I don't see abortion as murder. I have worked in an operating theatre where abortions were performed and part of my job was to dispose of the 'products of conception' as they are euphemistically called. Late term abortions, where the foetus is more human looking are difficult to deal with. My own children to be have been aborted yet I still fully support abortion. I have two children. I love kids, yet I would never force or agree with forcing a woman to carry the foetus to term against her wishes. As far as I am concerned the foetus doesn't become a human until it is born. Abortion is NOT murder. If it were then miscarriage caused by the mother's actions would be manslaughter.

Sorry BBB, it was Lut. I was posting in a rush.

Torrenter, I agree with you on abstinence being blind faith or wishful thinking for the parents of most teenagers. That's why I personally teach mine about birth control.

As for teenagers experimenting with sex, I can't say that I could get behind that one. Those raging hormones tend to exacerbate emotional instability and teenagers are in the learning phases of understanding and controlling their emotions anyway. I don't know about other countries but here in the US, teen suicide is increasing at an alarming rate.

And so what if bells and whistles don't ring on the wedding night? The intimacy of discovery and learning your partner's likes and needs is part of the bonding process of married couples. Respect for one's own body, sexual intimacy and the powers of procreation transcend to respect, confidence, compassion and consideration for each other.

One last thing I use to encourage my kids to remain virtuous until marriage and to seek a mate who is also virtuous, is the statistics that 48% of all African-American teenage girls and 25% of white American teenage girls are now busy passing along a smorgasbord of STD's including HIV. They can only hope condoms are effective enough.

Is what i put in pink and i didnt condamm your faith in god if thats what you think i did ............... but many ppl dont believe in god or dont have another faith and still they wouldnt do an abortion unless its necesarry as i put in my responce aswel. I did read your whole post Pink and read all other responces aswel , i just wanted to point out that God who is represented by the church leaders should not be dragged into something like this .................... i believe that religion is invented for those who needed it in times of dispare and when they saw stuff happening they couldnt explain otherwise so they had someone to turn to , in days like these all them wonders are perfectly explained by fysics and other smart ppl and how we raise our kids and how we live is just common decency and we all live by the values we think are right . Each person reads whatever different anyways , ............... as you read what i posted diff then how i put it ............. and maybe i read your diff aswel ...............anyway even though i dont believe in god as a god (but i do believe some ppl do need to think there is one out there) i do believe in values and i raised my kids probably with the same kind of values like you raised yours........ thats why god as nothing to do with it ...... its how we value life that matters.

This post has been edited by lut: Sep 9 2008, 05:33 AM

I haven't seen these stats before. Do you have a source for them please?

Though I don't believe everything I see on telly, I saw a recent programme where in some Asian communities, virginity is held in such importance that young asian women are resorting to hymenoplasty. Reasons given were more about the girl's parents than the prospective partner. Vox-pop asian men were also saying "I wouldn't marry a girl who is not a virgin", despite admitting to their own sexual experience.

I hear your opinion about "being virtuous" @pink, but I strongly disagree with it, and suspect it applies mainly to girls.